Monday, February 8, 2010

If the Book of Mormon is false, why didn't the 3 witnesses deny seeing the plates after they left the church?

The Three Witnesses left the church because they disagreed with Joseph's policies, but they never once threw doubt upon their testimonies. (Even Peter and Paul, who had both seen visions, sharply disagreed on policy at times.) Had they not really seen the plates, when they were out of the church, the Three Witnesses would have disavowed their experience, and they would not have tried to keep ties with the church. All three witnesses left the church for a time, but two came back before their deaths to make peace with God, and they all continued to bear witness to the Book of Mormon and their vision of the plates to the end.If the Book of Mormon is false, why didn't the 3 witnesses deny seeing the plates after they left the church?
Just like Joseph, they saw something and they knew it and they knew the Lord knew it and they could not deny it. Regardless of where their lives took them later, none ever denied it. Some were offered large sums of money and they didn't deny. To me, that shows some serious integrity and proves that they were not lying even though so the majority of them left the church prior to their deaths.If the Book of Mormon is false, why didn't the 3 witnesses deny seeing the plates after they left the church?
Because they were men of integrity. They could not deny that God allowed them this important privilege.





As some of these witnesses left the church, it was certainly an opportunity to ';expose'; Joseph Smith as a fraud and the church as deceitful. Yet they never did.





It is extremely significant to note that none of them denied their testimonies of the gold plates. That makes their testimonies as strong as any testimony ever given.
1. They may have seen 'something'. We just have no idea what. Faked plates would have been easy to make.





2. Mormon leaders themselves questioned the moral character of the witnesses:





Cursed by leaders such as Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer was denounced by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a ';dumb beast to ride'; and ';an *** to bray out cursings instead of blessings.'; (History of the Church, vol. 3, p 228)





Joseph Smith listed Oliver Cowdery as among those, ';too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them.'; (History of the Church, vol. 3:232)
Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris (the Three Witnesses), and the Eight Witnesses comprising of Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page (the Whitmers' brother-in-law), Joseph Smith Sr. (Joseph Smith's father), Hyrum Smith and Samuel H. Smith (Joseph Smith Jr.'s brothers) might've been persecuted in their lives as well as some never returned to the Church after their ex-communications, they never really denied their testimonies until their deaths.





All it really takes is your own testimony through ernest, sincere and fervent prayer to know of the Book of Mormon's truth despite the negative judgments you'll get by people; only God can judge you when you reach the afterlife.
What makes the Book of the Mormons false is not that they saw plates or not but rather it is the message that was given to Joseph Smith that makes the Book of the Mormons not from God. Joseph Smith had visions in which he talked to demons that were posing as angels who gave him the message that he was going to worship God properly by baptizing people with water unto salvation. This contradicts 1Pet 3:21. Below is a full explanation through the scriptures.


Baptism with Water Does Not Save a Person





1Pet 3:21 points out that the baptism that saves you is not water baptism but rather it is the baptism into Jesus that takes place when a person appeals to God for a good conscience or believes in the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.


1Pet. 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


This baptism, is the baptism that is referred to in Acts 2:38 which takes place when a person repents or returns to God by believing in Jesus with an honest and good heart. This baptism results in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which as is with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit


Rom 8:9 confirms that a person is saved with out being water baptized when it conversely states that it is when a person receives the Holy Spirit that they belong to God, since according to Eph 1:13-14 and Acts 2:38 this takes place when a person believes.


Rom. 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


Eph. 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


In the case described in Acts 10:42-47, the believers received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water and therefore were saved before they were baptized with water. Note that in verse forty four they were baptized with the Holy Spirit while Peter was preaching the gospel of salvation to them before they were baptized with water in verse forty seven.


Acts 10:42 “And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”


However, Jesus commands a person who has believed to receive water baptism when He tells His disciples to baptize all believers in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


(Mat 28:19) ';Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


In Mat 3: 13-15 when Jesus was baptized He told John that even His act of being water baptized would fulfill all righteousness.


(Mat 3:13-15) Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. {14} But John tried to prevent Him, saying, ';I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?'; {15} But Jesus answering said to him, ';Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.'; Then he permitted Him.


In Acts 8:35-38 the Jesus instructs us that a person must have believed in Him with their heart in order to be permitted to be baptized. In addition to the fact that infants do not receive the Holy Spirit if they are baptized with water and it is not water baptism that saves them they are excluded from being baptized since we cannot ascertain if they have believed.


(Acts 8:35-38) And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. {36} And as they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, ';Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?'; {37} And Philip said, ';If you believe with all your heart, you may.'; And he answered and said, ';I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.'; {38} And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well a
Actually you will find people lying all the time to get their way. Look at politics today, they are all a bunch of lairs. Many of these people were highly offended by Joseph Smith, they were called to repentance. And as many of us know this is very offensive, yet critical to a behavioral change. None of them denied their testimony of the golden plates. This was of the GOLDEN PLATES, not a rock or a broken piece of glass.





They testified that they held the plates, they turned the leaves, they HANDLED them, hundreds of pages of metallic plates of gold. And ironically the examples above of the rock or the broken piece of glass only fortify the argument that they actually saw what they saw...





Now... let's see... Say for instance you really hate the guy who showed you the rock or the broken piece of glass. I mean this guy has offended you in a most unpleasant way. If someone came up to you and said either you deny seeing the rock or the broken glass or I'm gonna kill you, or torture you, or kill your family. What are you gonna do?
Actually they did in a manner of speaking. In their own accounts, they didn't actually see the plates themselves. Rather, they merely saw visions of the plates.
Watch and learn.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=…

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